Proof that god exists?

 
  • Canuckfish said:
    So man could have decided that 2 + 2 = 9? Man could have decided that contradictions are allowed in reasoning??? If these models are man made, why aren't there millions of conflicting models? If they are universally true, maybe you could tell me how man can make a universal truth?


    Yes, and there can be, to each emphasized point respectively. You only being taught the decimal system does not mean it's the only one, only that you're limited to decimal. To me, a+b=15, and 7+5=c. Also, 2+4=10, and 3+15=22, which also equals e. Those are all entirely valid equations, and I challenge you or anyone else to question otherwise.

    I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image.
    -Stephen Hawking
    • -Reaper- ha detto...
    • Utente
    • Feb 22 2007, 1:20
    .999... = 1

    Assailants propagate the schism
    Black metal will continue; as long as Judeo-Christian ideals exist,
    so will the need to oppose them with art.

    Death Metal Black Metal The Antichristian Phenomenon
    Truest Metal Fans Porn Request underground BM here
    • Gerino ha detto...
    • Utente
    • Feb 22 2007, 15:41
    Maybe his god can do maths only in decimal system? ;)

    • -Reaper- ha detto...
    • Utente
    • Feb 23 2007, 6:55
    His logic is... bad

    Assailants propagate the schism
    Black metal will continue; as long as Judeo-Christian ideals exist,
    so will the need to oppose them with art.

    Death Metal Black Metal The Antichristian Phenomenon
    Truest Metal Fans Porn Request underground BM here
  • Sorry Folks

    Sorry folks for not answering sooner. My father has been quite ill, so I have not had the time to visit these forums as much as I would like. I will try to catch up today. If it gets too crazy, maybe you could pick one or two people amongst yourselves to continue the debate so I can keep up.

    Cheers,

    Sye

    The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.
  • Make a trip to Fermilab or other particle physics research centres.

    Surely you are not suggesting that this is where these laws are?

    1+1=0
    2+2=1
    Are those wrong answers? No, they are perfectly correct.


    Not only perfectly correct, absolutely correct within their respective systems.

    The only problem is on your side, because you assume some standards. A man-created and man-implicated standards.

    That is question begging. Prove your case.

    But the fact, that in every shop, nearly everywhere around you see arithmetic done in decimal system, it doesn't mean, that other systems are wrong.

    Sure it does. In base 10 mathematics 2 + 2 absolutely equals 4. All other answers in base 10 mathematics are wrong, not just 'simply different.'

    The fact, that sane, unprovoked people doesn't kill each other comes from the basic "set of rules", that were created in the process of evolution.

    This is an assertion. What is the argument. Not only do you need absolute standards to call ANYTHING wrong, you need them to call anything SANE.


    We are our own gods.


    This is totally consistent with my worldview. Those who deny God, do it because they want to be God, and not submit to the real God.



    All right, hit a wall. Was it painful? Yes it was. That is because the wall "hit you" with similar strength that you hit it.


    Of course, you hit the wall, not the law. Tell me this, can you be certain that it will be painful the next time you hit the wall?


    there are some universal constants, that can be regarded as the immaterial laws of physics. But it is thinking in the wrong way. The constants aren't as they are, because it has to make the Universe work. They are, as they are, because they are the effect of some yet-unknown cosmic event that created our reality.


    That's the problem with you atheists, you live on faith.


    If those constants were different, this universe wouldn't exist.


    I agree. Justify the constants in a 'random, changing' universe. (Without using your faith).


    It is like evolution, more or less. You try as long as it is necessary to get the right effect. But the point is, that there is no one, that makes those tries. It happens, boom, there is.


    It's like belief in God more or less, no one makes those laws, it happens, boom, God made them. (Doesn't sound like much of an argument when I make it does it?)

    The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.
  • I was tempted to stop here at the absurdity of that statement. But I have to ask: where does non-Christian morality come from?

    Absolute morality comes from God, other stuff is just made up.

    You'll find quite a few of us on this board have moral objections to Christianity. This is an important topic for me in particular, since my moral objections predate my becoming atheist.

    Let's hear 'em.

    The models are man made. The world they are meant to model is not (well, so far as we know). And if you don't think there are conflicting models, you might want to pick up a philosophy or higher level mathematics book. Millions would be an exaggeration, but conflicting positions exist. Not all of them assume universality.

    Alright, where does the law of non-contradiction not apply?


    The benefit of science over faith is being able to say: I don't know, but that's an interesting question.

    So if any conclusions are drawn, it amounts to....FAITH!

    Unfortunately, I doubt it's within human capacity to ever prove that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

    Yet, you make the statement assuming it is true.


    I already pointed out that one long established form of geometry is not. Does that mean Euclidean geometry isn't included in the mathematical laws named in your proof? But wait, all geometry is relative to the type of space a point or line occupies. If no theory of geometry is universally true, does this mean geometry isn't part of the univeral laws at all?

    You are missing the point. It is not universally true that 2 + 2 = 4, however it IS universally true that in base 10 mathematics 2 + 2 = 4.



    Why should human reasoning be reliable? How could we have this argument if it was?


    I imagine that your human reasoning is your ultimate authority, are you telling me now that it is NOT reliable?

    Have you studied cognitive dissonance?

    No, what does it have to do with truth?

    Other members of this group may make claims, but I'm simply asking questions and bringing up apparently contrary examples to understand your position.

    You have made claims, read your posts again.


    Your proof seems to be in conflict with everything I understand about logic, mathematics, and morality,


    Good

    and I personally find it immoral to post the site in the format you chose. But then, maybe that's just me and my kooky academic background.

    Indeed, if morality is arbitrary, who gives a rip?

    The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.
    • -Reaper- ha detto...
    • Utente
    • Feb 24 2007, 15:39
    This argument is stupid. Basically Canuck keeps taking apart the other guy's argument because they're very weakly constructed. The discussion is leading no where and only philosophical cliches result. (ie "can you be certain that it will be painful the next time you hit the wall?" or "atheistic faith") Which can be argued ad infinitum or is just outright stupid. The argument simply has no substance.

    Pertaining to the site, anyone who has taken even beginner courses in philosophy can see the inherent flaw in the circular logic approach. Trust me, smarter people than you have argued on the basis of the existence of god and have been refuted in countless publications. Your half assessed attempt doesn't even deserve a discussion, come back when you learn something about logic.

    Assailants propagate the schism
    Black metal will continue; as long as Judeo-Christian ideals exist,
    so will the need to oppose them with art.

    Death Metal Black Metal The Antichristian Phenomenon
    Truest Metal Fans Porn Request underground BM here
    • -Reaper- ha detto...
    • Utente
    • Feb 25 2007, 1:24
    Fine, if you guys would like me to unlock a totally pointless debate just so this guy can't get the "satisfaction" of knowing that his topic is locked then fine, but it's a totally pointless and circular debate.

    Talking to people like this is like talking to a wall, in fact even worse because they pervert the tool of logic and ultimately just waste your time in replying to empty rhetoric and arguments that could just as simply be initiated with garbage like "well who's to say" or other equally as pathetic attempts at a Platonic dialogue. If you wish to carry on, you're free to do so, but I for one wouldn't waste my time with this. Instead I'll go argue why we can't prove that the Sun will rise tomorrow, OMG, I'm a philosopher and I can use logic!

    Assailants propagate the schism
    Black metal will continue; as long as Judeo-Christian ideals exist,
    so will the need to oppose them with art.

    Death Metal Black Metal The Antichristian Phenomenon
    Truest Metal Fans Porn Request underground BM here
  • Haha, I love that website.

    The absolute morals one is fantastic.

    The options are:
    "Molesting children for fun is absolutely morally wrong."
    "Molesting children for fun could be right."

    It's like the questionnaire that asks you:
    "Are you aged 16 or aged 25?"
    Well actually, what if I'm 34, where's my option?

    Picking the most extreme example you can think of and then painting all moral wrongs with the same brush.

    Hey, I hear the Bible says stuff about not stealing! Stealing is an absolute moral wrong! But wait, I live in Mogadishu, am a father of 10 kids and my wife is dying of AIDS. We're all starving, because terrorists are taking away the food that the UN is trying to give us. One of the terrorists left a loaf of bread that he had bought (not stolen, so no loophole that it was originally supposed to be mine) on the ground whilst he went to the toilet in an alley! Great, I can feed my sons and wife, at least just for today. Oh. But stealing is wrong. =(

    Please don't anyone think I'm genuinely interested in a debate with this, I just love the way Argument X + Y = Z is used to prove X + Y = A - when it blatantly does not.

    You people are pathetically arguing over semantics, not faith. Semantics! You're picking out ambiguities in what people are saying when it's is plain to see what they mean. I am yet to see an actual argument being refuted. Bloody good show, I say. Keep it up, do.

  • Fine, if you guys would like me to unlock a totally pointless debate just so this guy can't get the "satisfaction" of knowing that his topic is locked then fine, but it's a totally pointless and circular debate.

    Of course it is,but discussing this was pointless from the beginning,before he came along.The subject can be locked or deleted when he gets tired and leaves,meanwhile let him post his stupid thoughts(?),at least he dosnt defile other threads.

    When you are next out of doors on a summer night, turn your head towards the zenith. Almost vertically above you will be shining the brightest star of the northern skies — Vega of the Lyre, twenty-six years away at the speed of light, near enough to the point of no return for us short-lived creatures. Past this blue-white beacon, fifty times as brilliant as our sun, we may send our minds and bodies, but never our hearts. For no man will ever turn homewards beyond Vega, to greet again those he knew and loved on Earth.
  • VampyreAngel said:
    Of course it is,but discussing this was pointless from the beginning,before he came along.The subject can be locked or deleted when he gets tired and leaves,meanwhile let him post his stupid thoughts(?),at least he dosnt defile other threads.


    No, just other forums....... like here and also here, among others.

    I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image.
    -Stephen Hawking
    • -Reaper- ha detto...
    • Utente
    • Feb 25 2007, 20:26
    Let me just demonstrate how much of a troll/unintelligent wannabe philosopher this guy is:


    Originally posted by Canuckfish
    What do you mean by "appears to work?"


    Originally posted by Barry Desborough
    Well, for example, I don't appear to be able to walk through stationary trucks, so I assume that walking in front of ones travelling at speed is not a good idea either.


    Originally posted by Canuckfish
    Do you believe that trucks exist? What is a truck to someone who believes nothing? What is langauge, communication, this forum, to someone who believes nothing. Look you can dance around your claim, but you can't live that way. Still if you wish to continue in your claim that you live strictly by blind faith, I'd say that your worlview is irrational.



    There you have it folks, the pinnacle of rationality, philosophy and intelligent conversation. This is what this thread will ultimately turn into, but don't tell me I didn't warn you. If, when he comes back and I keep seeing shit like this, I'm locking and deleting. He may be able to keep the average person from seeing past his ridiculous bullshit, but he won't fool everyone.
    I believe, therefore logically I must believe in god! OMG, LOGIC@!

    "Well, what do you mean by ridiculous bullshit?"

    Assailants propagate the schism
    Black metal will continue; as long as Judeo-Christian ideals exist,
    so will the need to oppose them with art.

    Death Metal Black Metal The Antichristian Phenomenon
    Truest Metal Fans Porn Request underground BM here

  • Of course it is,but discussing this was pointless from the beginning,before he came along.The subject can be locked or deleted when he gets tired and leaves,meanwhile let him post his stupid thoughts(?),at least he dosnt defile other threads.


    Thats my reason for wanting it unlocked too... I could see him racing off to ruin other threads here. Best to keep it contained.

    Anyway, my issue is with the absolute morals thing, because morals can not be absolute, but I'll post my points later, I'm pretty busy now, and I want to see what points other people have already mentioned before possibly repeating something mentioned already.

    There's no problem a few frag grenades can't fix.

    Cookies for Godlessness
    My Twin in life, love, mind, and music: ISoS
    The snake that cannot shed its skin perishes. So do the spirits who are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be spirit. -Nietzsche
  • I'd say lock it, but don't delete it. This can serve as a shrine to his complete and "absolute" one-dimensional irrationality.

    I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image.
    -Stephen Hawking
  • You know, this view is interesting.

    Usually we get Christians with a strictly "Christian or Athiest!" viewpoint... but this guy takes it to a new level... you're strictly "Christian or absolute fatalist/nihilist/atheist!"

    There's no problem a few frag grenades can't fix.

    Cookies for Godlessness
    My Twin in life, love, mind, and music: ISoS
    The snake that cannot shed its skin perishes. So do the spirits who are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be spirit. -Nietzsche
    • [Utente eliminato] ha detto...
    • Utente
    • Mar 1 2007, 3:16
    I'm finding myself agreeing with Reaper.

    Canuckfish, without any hint of condescension, if you honestly don't understand how 2+2=4 arises from set theory, you should pick up a book on it. (And that goes for anyone interested in these sorts of "proofs".) And if you don't understand how set theory can be abstracted from a purely material universe, well... good luck in life.

    • amoogle ha detto...
    • Utente
    • Mar 1 2007, 14:02
    mirrorpool said:
    O Rly?

    http://www.proofthatgodexists.org

    Are you sure that this isn't satirical? :P

    "This is an artist as I like my artists, simple in his needs: he really wants only two things, his bread, and his art ... "
    "Only sick music makes money today ... "

    -- Nietzsche
    • ciacciu- ha detto...
    • Utente
    • Mar 1 2007, 18:46
    This site is useless: many philosophers explained and motivated that we can't know anything about God with logic, because, if it exists, everything about it is determined by faith only :P

    P.S. absolute truth does non exist .
    This isn't an absolute truth, it's true until we found an absolute truth

    " Don't take life too seriously, you'll never get out of it alive "
  • amoogle said:
    mirrorpool said:
    O Rly?

    http://www.proofthatgodexists.org

    Are you sure that this isn't satirical? :P


    http://www.creedfeed.com/community/showthread.php?t=11332
    http://www.d12world.com/board/showthread.php?t=344167&page=22
    http://www.skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2/search.php?search_author=Canuckfish&sid=64d5679de92b04b6218410fd1b486195
    http://www.atheistnetwork.com/viewtopic.php?t=14983&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40&sid=f3ae034f2416e645b2163a470616c2df
    http://www.greylabyrinth.com/discussion/viewtopic.php?t=9883&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40
    http://ravingatheists.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=4448&p=4
    http://mwillett.org/Debate/search.php?search_author=canuckfish&sid=9e03060014944bf0fd03b0ff81ab8703

    Are you sure you've been paying attention? If this shit is satirical it's the most involved satire I've ever seen. This guy has spent at least most of the last 6 months posting on forums about his website and personal beliefs. A simple google search comes back with dozens of websites, some of which I've offered above. And the former site I listed is now up to 15 pages, in a few days.

    The guy is obsessed. For serious.

    I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it says something about human nature that the only form of life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've created life in our own image.
    -Stephen Hawking
  • ... wow. Just... wow.

    There's no problem a few frag grenades can't fix.

    Cookies for Godlessness
    My Twin in life, love, mind, and music: ISoS
    The snake that cannot shed its skin perishes. So do the spirits who are prevented from changing their opinions; they cease to be spirit. -Nietzsche
    • -Reaper- ha detto...
    • Utente
    • Mar 1 2007, 23:29
    Yeah, I think he's going about trying to prove a god in the wrong manner.

    Assailants propagate the schism
    Black metal will continue; as long as Judeo-Christian ideals exist,
    so will the need to oppose them with art.

    Death Metal Black Metal The Antichristian Phenomenon
    Truest Metal Fans Porn Request underground BM here
    • db0 ha detto...
    • Utente
    • Mar 2 2007, 18:29
    This discussion is just so funny

    You believe that Morality can be subjective thus I cannot convince you and you must either change your opinion or go to Disney (No, seriously, that is where his "Exit" Button takes you)

    ....

    Canuckfish, let me set a dilema to you, so that you can explain this absolute truth of yours.
    I will assume that when you say absolute truth, you mean in effect that either something is true or it is not true. For the sake of argument I will assume that applies in this case and I will ignore all the things philosophers as far back as Ancient Greece argued about in this issue, anyway:
    You have two races of humans in an otherwise empty planet, One of these two races has a genetic mutation and sees colors differently. At some point these two races meet and get into an argument.

    -"This Rock here is red" Says the representative of one race
    -"No, that Rock there is blue" Says the other
    -"No, look there, see, that is a blue rock over there."
    -"Yes that thing you show is also blue rock."


    Is the first rock blue or red?
    What is the "Universal Truth"?

    It is fortunate that what is necessary, is easy to acquire and what is difficult to have, is not necessary - Epicurus.
    Whenever you get randomly killed, the simplest and most logical solution is that it was probably ninja - Occam's Katana.


    • Gerino ha detto...
    • Utente
    • Mar 2 2007, 20:15
    It is like: there is no proof, that it is a real world, not some kind of "trick". You can be certain, that at the specific moment, the specific effect of specific set of rules takes place in this, more or less undefined, place; so for example it will be pretty close to truth, if I would say: "the Sun is shining". It will be more true, if I would say: "I see, that Sun is shining". It will be even more true, if I would say: "Basing on sensations that I get, my consciousness is convinced, that Sun is shining". You get the point, right?

    It was also always striking me as a damn' funny thing, when it was coming to my attention, that all I see is a electromagnetic radiation in specific spectrum, not some "reality", that my eyes let me - in obviously magic way - see. The colour example above is a good one - you can say, that our instruments are receiving a given wavelength from some object, but you cannot be sure, that this information is "translated" in somebody's mind in the same way that the other's guy.

    Because there is no nice, blue planet, and yellowy-white, bright sun, and green trees, and red flowers. There is some kind of matter-energy "compositions", in (not-so-much)specific point of time-space, emitting different kind of radiation - which is also matter/energy. What we see is an illusion. Or rather - representation. Model. F*ck, even we, the material people, are pretty much not-really-here.

    The Universe is a strange place, and probably the only reasonable truth, that can be created INSIDE it, are the sets of equations. Everything else is a mumbo-jumbo, doesn't matter if it is Plato, or some long-haired guy in Nazarene, or anybody else.




    (DANGER! Metaphysical believes below!)


    PS Oh, but wait, there is a catch. The "soul". I should probably mention it, but it is not really good idea. So I will only write, that I, personally, believe, that "soul" (meaning: some other part of human, that the matter) transcends known reality, and the Universe itself. Of course I can be wrong, but I do not require followers, nor support or acclamation, so I don't have - and don't want - to convince anybody.

    • EinOmega ha detto...
    • Utente
    • Mar 3 2007, 6:57
    You ever get to the point where you don't even want to discuss or debate religion, philosophy or theology because you realize everything has been said and it's a waste of time?
    I feel like that now. Live like there is nothing after, enjoy life. Fuck it, I'm drunk...

    If you see Kay, Tell him he may. See you in tea, Tell him from me.
    http://www.zeronews-fr.com/flash/super-mario-communist.php
Gli utenti anonimi non possono inviare messaggi. Per inserire messaggi nei forum, accedi o crea il tuo account.