Nazi-neofolk bands

 
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    • Ago 9 2008, 16:27

    Nazi-neofolk bands

    Hi, I'm new, I've joined this group because I'm anti racist and anti fascist. And proud to be what I am.
    I think that would be interesting making a list of all neofolk bands which are explicitly racist or nazist, bands like Blood Axis for example.

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    • Ago 13 2008, 9:49
    I doubt that Blood Axis should be even on the list.. Go read http://wweek.com/html/leada081600.html :)

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    • Ago 15 2008, 18:52
    mm, ok, sounds good.
    And what about the interview where Douglas P. says something similar to "Race is important, I suck only white dicks ecc ecc.", I can't now reach it but I think you know it. It's a fake?

  • italian "foresta di ferro" are explicitly neo-fascist (and even boring as fuck).
    regarding doug P. i'd bet that it's all for the show.
    btw welcome it feels good to have another italian antifascist neofolk fan

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    • Ago 17 2008, 13:41
    Where's the proof?

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    • Ago 17 2008, 15:09
    Thanks guys

    Now I'm going to find that interview to DP, If I will find It I will post the link!

    I've never heard about "foresta di ferro"... and I will never hear them.

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    • Ago 17 2008, 17:43
    oh yeah, I've found it:

    http://web.archive.org/web/20040219144806/www.dagobertsrevenge.com/index.html?ae/musick/dij

    It' one of the last questions!

    I've also found this:
    http://libcom.org/library/death-in-june-a-nazi-band

    How much is true and how many are forced prooves? I'm not a blind folk who believes to everyone who says to be against racism and fascism, often these people see what they want, like a chase against the "bad" or for a moment of glory. I want only know how much is true by somebody who knows much than me about these facts. ;)

  • Darryl Hell, who directed the "Behind the Mask" DVD, is a black american guy, so it's kind of hard for me to believe that Douglas P. is really a racist, at least nowadays.

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    • Ago 23 2008, 14:16
    risingtrees said:
    Darryl Hell, who directed the "Behind the Mask" DVD, is a black american guy, so it's kind of hard for me to believe that Douglas P. is really a racist, at least nowadays.


    He looks like a nazi. That's all that matters.

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    • Ago 23 2008, 17:51
    Have you read what I've written?
    I'm not talking about look, I'm not talking about a black african boy who made a DVD. I've linked an interview. In this interview Douglas says:

    "I prefer to suck, white, uncircumsised cocks of a certain age so I suppose that rules out quite a few races and religions in one huge act of sexual discrimination. However, taht’s natural selection for you. It follows onthat, of course race is important to me! "

    Seems that this is what he thinks
    Is it a fake?

  • I talk about that DVD because is an official release where Douglas P. is interviewed by the aforementioned Darryl Hell, and I think this fact (that I find relevant) can make one doubt that Pearce holds true racist views. By the way, Edisa Weeks, who also worked in the making of "Behind the Mask", is another "non-white" person.

    Concerning that part of the interview, he answers talking about personal sexual preferences, and it seems he takes the piss out of that subject.

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    • Ago 24 2008, 9:15
    LysergicWave said:
    Have you read what I've written?
    I'm not talking about look, I'm not talking about a black african boy who made a DVD. I've linked an interview. In this interview Douglas says:

    "I prefer to suck, white, uncircumsised cocks of a certain age so I suppose that rules out quite a few races and religions in one huge act of sexual discrimination. However, taht’s natural selection for you. It follows onthat, of course race is important to me! "

    Seems that this is what he thinks
    Is it a fake?



    Oh, sorry. I wasn't referring to you, when I said that.

    That interview is real. But there is no racism in it, as there is no sexism in preferring men over women (or vice versa). I too prefer Japanese women over others, but I don't think I'm a racist because of it. Even if it follows that race is important (to me). It's only a question of preference (as Risingtrees said above), not ethnic cleansing, so there is nothing that implies discrimination in that interview.

  • novemillimetri said:
    italian "foresta di ferro" are explicitly neo-fascist


    what do you base that on?

  • quotes from julis evola in their songs and fascist militia chants like "eia eia" : )

  • just to say, that it's not needed to be a nazi or a explicit racist to be a fascist.

    like the original poster, I too would like to know of bands who don't leave no margin of doubt about being fascists.

    chapeleirolouco
  • novemillimetri said:
    quotes from julis evola in their songs and fascist militia chants like "eia eia" : )

    I'm aware of the fascination that Richard Leviathan has with Evola. However I've had dealings with Marco Deplano from the band, and he doesn't strike me as a fascist.

  • i dont know them personally i just base my judice on text of theirs songs.
    in italy chanting "eia eia allalla" is a rather explicit message.
    im not saying that they are nazi activists or something like, im just noting the fact that including fascist militia chants coupled with evola quotes it's a rather explicit message for an italian band, one that definitely doesn't win my favor as an antifascist.

    regarding anti-fascist martial-industrial acts i'd like to push "Militia" ; )

  • This is an interview with Richard Leviathan from Foresta di Ferro and Ostara.


    Synthesis interview with Richard Leviathan

    Please note that Synthesis is an national-anarchist journal run by Troy Southgate of H.E.R.R. (and yes I do know that the term is an oxymoron)

  • well after reading the interview sounds like the guy is a bit confused but not that nazi ; )
    not that he makes any real political statement.... but it seems to me that he is more on the "conservative" side

    still as an italian and an antifascist the practice of inserting fascist chants in songs makes me unconfortable

  • "I prefer to suck, white, uncircumsised cocks of a certain age so I suppose that rules out quite a few races and religions in one huge act of sexual discrimination."

    Hahaha, how can one NOT see the irony in that statement? YES, it is in itself a racist statement, but it immediately puts off any true nazi from ever coming anywhere near Douglas P again!

    I joined this group because I am anti fascist and still like a lot of neo folk. The romantic folk kind, mind you, not the military marches with sampled speeches and sounds of gunfire sometimes lumped together with it. However, I don't think you can draw a distinct line between the "good" neo folk and the fascist scum.

    Of course, I wish to have nothing to do with outspoken fascists like von Thronstahl, but let's face it: There is no reason why a nationalist kid in Germany or Scandinavia couldn't like Foresti or Darkwood as much as I do, as the lyrics and imagery should be most appealing to him – although for partly different reasons – while there is nothing in the lyrics or imagery that clearly shows they're NOT fascists. They have to write it on their web site instead, which as an artist I'd feel to be quite limiting.

    Sometimes, of course, there are confrontations. In Sweden, there was some controversy a while back where a festival had to be cancelled when some of the bigger names on the bill discovered the people behind it were nazis. Which of course have led the nazis to accuse them of "sabotage" and politically being sissies in general.

    Anyway, nice to be in this group. I'm only beginning to find out about the scene beyond the biggest bands, so any tips are more than welcome.

    "we're not involved in political issues, especially no right-winged. So, if you're a kind of nazi-scum: fuck off and die!"
    - Sonne Hagal
    • ALWC ha detto...
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    • Ott 18 2008, 9:17
    (Warning, this is a very long post)

    I actually started work on a list like the one the opening post requests a while back- basically a list of the known political views of various neofolk and martial industrial bands, based on their own statements and actions, since I'm both a fan of the music and very opposed to racism and fascism, and the politics of the neofolk scene are such a source of controversy and concern.
    I never really finished it, though I might make the effort if there's enough interest, but to sum up the conclusions I drew from the research I did:

    If there's actually an openly racist/Nazi neofolk band out there, I don't know of it. (I think there's a few NSBM side projects that play folk music, but I don't think those really count as neofolk.) In researching the list, when it comes to neofolk I came across only one obscure band (Der Arbeiter) who I'm pretty sure are neo-Nazi, as apparently the central figure they derive their philosophy from is Miguel Serrano, who literally worships Hitler as some sort of divine being. From that it's hard to draw any other conclusion about what the band believes, though they aren't open about it.

    For the vast majority of neofolk bands, though, there's nothing to even suggest they're fascists unless you count things like using runes in their album artwork as signs of secret fascism (which some people do, and which is just stupid, dogmatic, and paranoid, in my mind), and there's quite a number of neofolk bands, including some of the biggest names in the scene, that have made explicit statements against racism/fascism/Nazism, (Sol Invictus, Current 93, Sonne Hagal, Lux Interna, Luftwaffe, Strength Through Joy/Ostara- references for all of these available on request) and others (Orplid and Of the Wand and the Moon) that have made statements of being staunchly apolitical. Sonne Hagal, in particular, has made an extremely direct and unambiguous anti-Nazi statement, which was nice to see. Many others haven't really made any statements on what they believe one way or another. I will say that there's a couple of those where it wouldn't surprise me if they actually did turn out to be secret fascists, due to the combination of the imagery they use and/or certain cryptic statements made in interviews, but even in those cases there's no smoking gun, and given the heaviness of the accusation I wouldn't be inclined to jump to conclusions.

    The martial industrial scene is a bit of a different story, though- I'd still say most bands there are apolitical, but there are some that are indisputably far-right- Von Thronstahl (fascists, and very open about it), H.E.R.R. ("National Anarchists", again very open about it) and, I'm pretty sure, Der Blutharsch. Der Blutharsch is less obvious in their views, but they released a split with an Italian neo-fascist band called Zetazeroalfa and in an interview described a left-wing anarchist band on their label as holding the opposite political position to theirs. I can't say that they're fascists with absolute certainty, but from those two things there's not much doubt in my mind that they're at least on the far-right. (I'm fairly sure they aren't Nazis, though- they played a show in Israel and released a special compilation for their Israeli fans complete with Hebrew lettering on the cover, something I have a seriously hard time imagining full-blown Nazis doing.) Based on various things I also think Triarii and Arditi probably hold far-right views, but there isn't anything I've seen to absolutely confirm it.
    (Note that there are also far-left martial industrial bands- see Gaë Bolg and Militia, though AFAIK the former doesn't really express their politics in their music. In general it seems to be a rather more openly political genre than neofolk, though of course there's a great deal of crossover between the two.)

    As for Death In June- if I were to go into all the evidence for and against Douglas P.'s supposed fascism/racism/neo-Nazism, it would take a very long time and would contain a bunch of seeming slam-dunk arguments on both sides.
    I'll sum up by saying that he's said some stuff which makes me think he has some rather dodgy political/race-related beliefs, but I definitely don't think he's a Nazi at all- among other things, I just can not imagine an actual Nazi playing a show in Israel and then putting an Israeli flag on the front page of his website for a while, in a context where it was clearly intended as positive, as Douglas did. (That seriously pissed off some of the few neo-Nazis who still thought he was one of them, I believe.) Not to mention working with Richard Leviathan, but more on that later. Primarily, I think he enjoys messing with people's heads and keeping the controversy going, to such an extent that it's nearly impossible to say anything one way or another about what he actually believes, and I think that's exactly how he wants it.

    On Richard Leviathan- he is most definitely not a Nazi. It's hard to say it strongly enough, in fact- he's of Jewish descent, and doesn't try to hide that or seem in the least ashamed of it. And if that's not enough, he's written songs in tribute to both Claus von Stauffenberg and the White Rose group. These things being the case, I think it's pretty safe to say that any band he's part of is not even close to being a Nazi group. There's another interview here where he goes into some of this more.
    As for general fascism- he's not a leftist, to be sure, and seems pretty influenced by that sort of aristocratic-mystic-conservative school of political thought that fascists often are as well, but I think he's about as much a fascist as a libertarian socialist is a Stalinist- in both cases, they may share similar philosophical roots and use similar sounding rhetoric at times, but they're pretty profoundly and fundamentally different. Even if you figure it's possible to be both Jewish and fascist (if not Nazi), it's very difficult to reconcile what he says about Stauffenberg and the White Rose group in the interview I linked with actual fascism, and I'd go so far as to say it's impossible.

    So, to sum up, for the most part I would say the neofolk scene does not at all deserve the reputation it has. There's no question that the themes, imagery, and philosophies that neofolk and martial industrial bands tend to be into are also frequently shared by far-rightists, but that does not therefore inevitably make the bands fascist/far-right themselves- that's the same kind of logic that, to flip the politics around, would assume that an anarchist punk band were "really" Stalinists who wanted to bring back the gulag.

  • ALWC escribió:
    ...there's quite a number of neofolk bands, including some of the biggest names in the scene, that have made explicit statements against racism/fascism/Nazism, (Sol Invictus, Current 93, Sonne Hagal, Lux Interna, Luftwaffe, Strength Through Joy/Ostara- references for all of these available on request) and others (Orplid and Of the Wand and the Moon) that have made statements of being staunchly apolitical. Sonne Hagal, in particular, has made an extremely direct and unambiguous anti-Nazi statement, which was nice to see.


    Dies Natalis should also be included: "Requests for friendship of people who share recognizable national socialist and/or right wing ideas, also those who glorify violence and have a stupid romantic view on history, we won't accept at all!" (http://www.myspace.com/realdiesnatalis)

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    • Ott 18 2008, 18:45
    ALWC said:
    H.E.R.R. ("National Anarchists", again very open about it)

    Ehm.. Do you mean H.E.R.R. as a whole group there, or only Troy Southgate?

    For the rest, a very nice read. I'd like to read a complete document and stuff, if you have any such thing handy. You might also want to get in contact with the person currently writing a book on neofolk. They might be very interested in your documentation.

    • ALWC ha detto...
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    • Ott 21 2008, 11:51
    One more thing on the subject of the general controversy- for all that I'd certainly be more inclined to call myself left than right, my impression is that a lot of the far-left types who go after neofolk bands are incredibly dishonest, and will claim a band are Nazis based on the weakest of evidence. There's a certain person among them who seems to be a pretty prominent figure among the anti-neofolk crowd and the main source for a lot of the more prevalent smears against people like Tony Wakeford- I won't name him and thereby give him more publicity (since it's pretty obvious there's nothing he craves more- you can probably figure out who it is from what I say about him. He once claimed this very group was some sort of secret Nazi recruitment tool or something, IIRC), but as far as I can tell what motivates his crusade is that he used to be friends with Douglas P. and Tony Wakeford (even writing the introduction to a Sol Invictus lyric book- yeah, he leaves that particular detail out of his smear pages, needless to say), and he got attacked by some other far-leftists for it. So his way of reestablishing his leftist credentials has been smearing all his former friends as secret Nazis, no matter how much evidence there is that they aren't, (and needless to say he leaves that out or dismisses it as part of their supposed elaborate effort to hide their true beliefs), and the entire genre as being made up of nothing but fascists and Nazis. All of them, without exception. Nowadays, he's even claiming David Tibet is really a deep cover fascist. I'm surprised he hasn't tried to claim Sonne Hagal are secretly Nazis. In short, he strikes me as a thoroughly despicable, dishonest individual, and I would trust basically nothing he says. Unfortunately, there seem to be many people who do take what he says seriously.


    ChAwech said:
    Ehm.. Do you mean H.E.R.R. as a whole group there, or only Troy Southgate?


    Basically just Troy Southgate- he seems to be the central figure of the band so I was sort of conflating him with the whole group, but yeah, that was sloppy on my part. I don't really know what the exact beliefs of the rest of the band are, and they may not be national anarchists specifically, but it's pretty safe to say that at the very least they don't have a problem with Southgate's views, and that Southgate's politics are a noticeable (if not especially blatant) presence in their imagery and lyrics. So if one has a problem with listening to any sort of far-right music, H.E.R.R. is probably out.

    For the rest, a very nice read. I'd like to read a complete document and stuff, if you have any such thing handy. You might also want to get in contact with the person currently writing a book on neofolk. They might be very interested in your documentation.

    That's flattering, thanks. I'll see about finishing up the list when I can- by nature it'll always be kind of a work in progress, but I have a fair number of bands listed, and mainly need to finish writing the intro and adding the links to my sources before it's ready. I'll put it up as a separate post when that's done. (Nice to see that about Dies Natalis, by the way- they'd slipped under my radar, but I'll definitely note them on the list.)
    The research I've done probably doesn't rise to the academic standard, as it's all been based on what I've found on the Internet- I haven't interviewed bands myself, or looked up old zines, or anything, so I'm not sure how qualified I would be to contribute to the book. Still, maybe I'll mention it to them if this issue is one of the things they're focusing on.



    Risingstar101 said: Anyway, nice to be in this group. I'm only beginning to find out about the scene beyond the biggest bands, so any tips are more than welcome.

    Hmm- if you like the romantic folk side of things, a few bands I can think of that you might want to check out are Lux Interna (maybe a little more on the mystic/philosophical side than strictly romantic, but HIGHLY recommended), Orplid (at least on the "Nächtliche Jünger" album, which may be the purest example of capital-R Romantic neofolk I've ever heard), Empyrium (after they stopped being a metal band and became a neofolk one- I haven't gotten into that period as much myself, but "Where at Night the Wood Grouse Plays" is considered a classic of romantic neofolk), and Nest (very different from the average neofolk band in that they use a traditional Finnish instrument called a kantele instead of a guitar, and possibly not even really neofolk by the usual definition- but if you're up for something different they make some gorgeous music).
    As far as political tendencies go, I'm quite sure all of these bands are devoid of right-wing nastiness- I know Lux Interna is, and Orplid, Empyrium and Nest are entirely apolitical as far as I know.

  • I might be uninformed but who is this person that you speak of?

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